Why Greatness Starts With Surrender - Joe Mazzulla, Boston Celtics Head Coach

Boston Celtics head coach Joe Mazzulla shares a leadership philosophy every business leader needs to hear. From taking over the Celtics just days before training camp to leading the team to an NBA championship, Mazzulla explains why greatness begins with surrender: accepting that failure is possible, refusing to tie your identity to outcomes, and staying grounded in purpose. This isn't really an episode about basketball. It's about what it actually costs - emotionally, psychologically, spiritually - to chase something great.

In this conversation with ReliaQuest Director of Mental Performance Derin McMains, you'll also hear Joe discuss:

• How he defines mental toughness that goes against conventional thinking
• Trust is built in daily interactions, not in once-a-week meetings
• The job of a great leader is to one day be forgotten

ReliaQuest exists to Make Security Possible, allowing security teams to detect and contain threats within minutes — anytime, anywhere. Our AI powered GreyMatter technology connects with customers’ existing tools and infrastructure to drive greater visibility and automation without the need to centralize data or standardize technology. Built on over a decade of experience, ReliaQuest is the only cybersecurity technology company at scale, at the enterprise, that makes the customer the platform. With over 1,000 customers worldwide and 1,200 teammates across six global operating centers, ReliaQuest delivers security outcomes for the most trusted enterprise brands in the world.
Learn more at: https://www.reliaquest.com

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Transcript

00:00:01.080 — 00:01:44.160 · Speaker 1
Relaxed mental performance coach Darren McManus interviews top performers across multiple industries to unpack their mindset and their strategies that has helped them dominate in their arena so you can dominate in yours. Welcome to no Show Dogs powered by Rely Quest. Hey, welcome back to the No Show Dogs podcast Powered by Request.

And today we've got one of the most insightful, interesting, and quite possibly just one of the best basketball coaches on the planet. And Joe Missoula Joe was hired as the Boston Celtics head coach just a few days before training camp started in September of 22, and he became the youngest coach to win the NBA finals in over 40 years when he led the Celtics to the championship in 2024.

He was just recently named the NBA coach of the year for this past season. But if you ask him, it's really an award that's more representative of the staff and the players. I mean, how do you not love that response from your head coach? Joe is the epitome of a no show dog. Like when you win the NBA coach of the year, and you're quick to say that the award should be named staff of the year.

That's what No Show Dogs is all about. It ain't about you. It's just about doing the work and making those around you better. And you guys, I'm telling you, you are in for such a treat today. And like always, I just want to give you one thing right here at the top that really jumped out at me, that I just don't want you to miss when it comes to being a world class performer.

Here's what Joe said Joe said this when you decide to go after greatness, the quicker you can get in touch with the reality that this may not go well and surrender to it. That's what gives you the freedom to go after something.


00:01:45.360 — 00:02:46.880 · Speaker 1
Look, that might seem paradoxical, but the freedom you need to truly chase greatness means you've got to confront the fact that you might fail. You can't be afraid of failing. It doesn't mean that you have to like it, but you've got to accept the possibility of it. And look, by surrendering to failure, you're not giving up or giving in.

More importantly, you're letting go. You're letting go of an avoidance focused mindset. You're letting go of a future result. You're letting go of a belief that your identity is attached to an outcome. If you ever want to catch greatness, you've got to let go of the fear of failure. Because when you surrender to the possibility that you could lose, then you'll experience the freedom you need to win.

Joe is one of the best in the world at his craft because of this mindset, and you're going to learn a lot more from this conversation with Boston Celtics head coach Joe Missoula. Hey Joe, thanks for carving out some.


00:02:46.880 — 00:03:02.160 · Speaker 2
Time and joining us on the No Show Dogs podcast. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. So let's just start early on coaching journey. You get done playing at West Virginia 2011 and you go right into coaching. Was there something that drew you into coaching right away? Like like, why jump in so quickly?


00:03:02.200 — 00:05:13.790 · Speaker 3
Uh, well, before that. So I had, um, we lose to, uh, Kentucky in Tampa. My senior year, and I get a call. Uh, from Nova southeastern. Um, and and, you know, coach was like, hey, uh, listen to your interviews as a player. Like, you know, you know, I really think you can be a really good coach. Like, why don't you start that early?

And, uh, I got it the day after the game, and I wasn't really ready. I was kind of still in, like, I might want to play. I might want to explore trying to play overseas or something like that. And I kind of. I turned down my first coaching job as a, uh, to potentially be an assistant at Nova Southeastern, um, and to pursue, like a summer off season of like, hey, do I really want to be, um, you know, a professional basketball player or try to be.

And in that space, once I turned that down, up until later that October, where I ended up going to Glenville State, I ended up kind of like proving to myself of like, I don't really want to be a professional one. I probably wasn't good enough to I wasn't ready to. I wasn't willing to, like, commit to what it like, meant to be a professional basketball player.

And three, I kind of felt like, you know, coach was right. Coach tool was right of like, no, this is kind of like my calling and something that I want to pursue. And so fortunately I was able to get back into it. So that was kind of an interesting story from like the literally the next day of when we lost up until October.

When I got it, I was in that space of wanting to figure it out of what I wanted to do. But I think the answer really comes from just from my dad. And then as a young kid, and I didn't really realize it until people started asking me the question of like, why you got into coaching? And the answer is like, I've I've never had a negative experience with with the coach, and I've had some of the best coaches, whether it was basketball or soccer.

And I'm still friends with most of my coaches today. I remember their names. I remember like the practice plans and the principals, um, you know, that that they taught me. And so I think, you know, part of getting to where you want to get to is being surrounded by good people. And I've been surrounded by great coaches my entire life.

And I think that's you want to give that back to your players, but you also want to give that back just to people is the experience that I got from them.


00:05:13.950 — 00:05:26.910 · Speaker 2
Was it a challenge early on? Because I know a lot of times when athletes move on from playing, their identity is so attached to themselves. As an athlete, was that difficult for you early on to shed that identity a little bit, or did you?


00:05:26.910 — 00:06:07.830 · Speaker 3
It was actually more difficult the year before because I had missed a year with the shoulder injury, and that's in the game. That was the first time that, like the game of basketball, was really taken from me, and it was the first time where I was like, okay, like, you know, I'm no longer at this point. I'm not a basketball player.

I'm like, just the joy of the guy. And so, like that year, uh, where I had to sit out, I had to go through a lot of growing pains as a person, uh, to really, you know, to kind of, you know, re identify, you know, who I was as a person. And so, uh, once I was done playing, I was actually a little bit easier, but that that year that I was hurt was much harder, you know, because I had to reestablish my identity as an individual who I believed in what I believed in.

And, and, you know, it obviously had to be something bigger than basketball.


00:06:07.870 — 00:06:36.310 · Speaker 2
Yeah. That's so good. I mean, we talk about identity a lot on here because everything we do flow flows from that. Right? And our identity determines our perspective. Perspective determines thoughts. Thoughts determine emotions and then emotions influence actions. Right. We can always act different than how we feel obviously.

And so just in the work I've done in sports psychology, I know you have a sports psychology degree as well. And so I'm I can't wait to talk to you about that here in a moment. But being able to detach yourself from you as an athlete is such a huge thing because it's, um,


00:06:37.350 — 00:06:43.870 · Speaker 2
emotionally detaching from results. It's really hard to do if you identify yourself as an athlete. I think those two go together, right?


00:06:43.910 — 00:08:19.830 · Speaker 3
I mean, the same thing. It's the same thing in coaching now. Like, you know, if you identify yourself, uh, if you win a game and identify yourself as a winner, uh, that's dangerous. If you lose your game and define, you know, define yourself as a loser. That's also dangerous. And so I think. Whether you're an athlete, whether you're a coach, whatever your job may be, your identity has to be in something bigger than your work.

And there has to be a purpose to what you do. And so I say, that's a that's not you just don't make that decision once. I think you have to make that decision. Uh, you know, not always daily. Sometimes you're in a good you're in a good place. But, uh, you have to check in every couple of times during the season, you know, like, uh, you go on a losing streak, you're not a loser.

You're just losing games. Like. And it's the same thing for the people around you. We're not, you know, losers. We're losing. And you know, we're also if we're on a winning streak, we're not, you know, winners. We're just winning. And I think you have to maintain that. And, um, also comes into like how you handle, uh, the wins and losses at home, but also, you know, with the team, like, you know, one of the things we try to do is like, what can we not tell the next day if we won or lost?

You know, like, I think getting overexcited after a win or getting down after a loss, like, can you come in the next day and by our, um, tone, by our communication, by our mindset towards the. Whether it's a practice, uh, walkthrough film session, can we act as if we don't even remember what the result was?

And I think that kind of helps you, you know, and then at home, you know, can you not take, you know, your, your coaching identity, can you leave that where it is? And, and, you know, be the person that you know, whether your wife or your family needs you to be, but also the people around you need you to be. Yeah.


00:08:19.870 — 00:08:33.590 · Speaker 2
Were these things that you learned as an assistant as you're developing your coaching philosophy and and if so, or I'm just curious, actually, what were you learning, like intentionally seeking out or intentionally observing that you knew would serve you as a head coach?


00:08:34.030 — 00:09:34.140 · Speaker 3
Um, I mean, the first thing for me was like, goes back to kind of my identity when when I was her, it was like I had to reestablish my relationship with my faith and like, that's where my identity was going to be. And because it couldn't be in, um, the success that I, that I had as a player at West Virginia or the failure that I had, you know, as a person at times at West Virginia.

It wasn't going to be in, you know, this. It was going to be like, I just want to be a better person, you know? And so I had to reestablish my identity as my anchor was in my faith. And then, you know, when I got into coaching, it was like I felt like God led me to coaching. So I was like, okay, this is my purpose. How do I use the gifts that God has given me to be the best coach that I could be, but also, you know, make the people and the environment around you better, but also learn at the same time.

And so I think it was just a constant, uh, experimentation of like, okay, you know, this is my purpose. God brought me here. Okay, how do I work at my craft at the same time? How do I, you know, uh, grow as a person? How do I, you know, try to make others better, and then you just kind of chip away at that, you know?

Yeah.


00:09:34.180 — 00:09:46.140 · Speaker 2
When when you're going through that process, trying to figure out how your faith shaped your coaching philosophy, your faith shapes your identity. Did you have mentors along the way? Like what did those conversations look like?


00:09:46.300 — 00:10:45.220 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Um, I think just I had mentors, people that were close to me. But I also just from the outside in looking at what does success look like? Right. And I think you have different examples of that. Like there are successful coaches who only care about winning, but they're successful coaches that care about other things.

And so I think it's just kind of studying, like, you know, the people around you, you know, and, and, um, you know, I've had great people in my life, uh, that were, you know, faithful coaches who were successful, faithful coaches who weren't successful by, you know, the standard. But then you have people that you don't necessarily know, but that you pay attention to how they carry themselves.

You know, what their you know, what their players say about them. Um, and so you're just kind of learning about, you know, okay. And then you have to just you're doing a lot of, you know, introspection of like, okay, who do I want to be, you know, and, um, who do I want to be? What do I want my, my wife and kids to say about me?

What do I want my players to say about me? What are you? And then after that, it's like you can't really control it. So it's about just kind of being as authentic as you can, you know? Yeah.


00:10:45.260 — 00:11:05.460 · Speaker 2
And I saw where you got had a degree in sports psychology. And so I think as a head coach or any coach, assistant coach doesn't matter. I think you're always trying to develop mental toughness in athletes, right? And one thing I noticed yourself. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, sure. Um, but I know you can't develop what you can't define.

Yeah, right. And so how do you how would you define mental toughness?


00:11:05.780 — 00:12:30.980 · Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, I don't have like a clinical definition. And there's really just, you know, my own experiences essentially of like, you know, how do you quickly, uh, eliminate, um, emotion and feeling from, from result and from your environment, and, you know, how quickly can you just get to the facts of, like, what's really going on?

And then how quickly can you get to the solution of, like, what you need to do in that next moment? And I think that's just, um, that's kind of how I looked at it is, you know, you can go through, um, you know, life and situations emotionally and, and operate by feeling and, and, you know, you end up kind of on autopilot, you know, or you can eliminate those two things and have a clear factual understanding of your environment.

But then, okay, based on those facts, uh, you know, what's my next step of action? And I think just kind of constantly doing that. Um, and I don't even know if it's a definition, but I think the other part of that is like, I think you have to reach a real level of, uh, vulnerability to, to be mentally tough. Like, I think, you know, a work on mental toughness.

I think there's a level of vulnerability that you have to get to. I think there's a level of weakness that you have to have as a person. I think there's a level of surrender that you have to have. And when you can be honest about those, those things, uh, you can actually use them to your advantage. And so, uh, it doesn't mean being tough.

I think it means being, you know, present in the moment and being a solution oriented as you can, uh, while just going through the things that life brings ahead of you. You know.


00:12:31.060 — 00:12:38.340 · Speaker 2
It's so paradoxical to hear you talk about mental toughness and then use words such as vulnerability, weakness, surrender. Those are not words that always go to.


00:12:38.380 — 00:12:40.780 · Speaker 3
Oh, but I think they go hand in hand. I'm with you, right?


00:12:40.980 — 00:12:52.300 · Speaker 2
Yeah. And so can you expand on it just a little bit because I think I get it. I don't want to put words in your mouth a little bit. And so, um, can you expand on that just a little bit more on how those, how that relationship plays out.


00:12:52.340 — 00:14:08.580 · Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, I think in order to um, to me, the best example would be like when you, when you were in the weight room. Right? And you want to build muscle or you want to build like you have to put your body through strain, you have to put your body through things, and you're gonna end up being sore and you're tired.

And but on the other side of that, you know, you've developed the the cardiovascular health or, you know, whatever your goal may be in the weight room. And I think your brain and also your heart is the same is some of it. I mean, you don't want to put too much on yourself, but I do think you have to seek, uh, mental strain and emotional strain in order to grow as a person.

But I also think that that naturally, those things are going to happen. You know, there's going to be moments of mental strain, emotional strain. And it just comes down to how you leverage that, you know, how do you use that as an opportunity to, to to grow your brain or to grow your heart and to become, you know.

So, so I think it's no different than being in the weight room. You know, you can't just go in and and for the rest of your life, I mean, you can, but, you know, and just bench press 25 pound dumbbells or something like that. You're going to naturally want to progress. Each set is going to get a little bit tougher.

And you're not going to see the gains that day, but you're going to see them over time. And I think using, um, you know, mental and emotional strain, uh, to grow as a person is just as important as a physical.


00:14:09.660 — 00:14:26.180 · Speaker 2
As a coach. You mentioned earlier emotional detachment. Sports is so emotional. So emotional. Right. And so how do you coach, how do you train, how do you develop your guys to walk them through that train skill, to learn how to act different than how you feel and control the moment?


00:14:26.220 — 00:14:43.660 · Speaker 3
Yeah, I would say one. For me, emotional detachment is a strength and a weakness like I can, if you ask my wife, um, I'm working on that. But, you know, I think in a competitive arena, uh, again, it just goes back to, like, you're constantly fighting for what's true, you know, like, because, you know, I'm not trying to sound like, you know,


00:14:44.860 — 00:15:41.860 · Speaker 3
in the world today, it's hard to like, what is truth like, in some capacity. Right. I mean, I think there's so much information and there's so many. You know, even with your own brain, you can tell yourself a story that may or may not be 100% true in order for self-preservation. And, um, you know, the more, uh, we could get to, like, you know, the reality of things and just facts only especially in the competitive arena, we can then move on about like, okay, based on the information that we have, how can we how can we, you know, develop a process of winning?

Um, you know, so a lot of that comes from the type of players that we have. You know, I think one, our front office does an amazing job. You know, our scouting and our analytics team and our front office team of like getting competitive character, you know, getting a group of guys that like care about winning.

And so you know some of that you come in with that already. And then I think a lot of us are just conversation. I'm like, okay, like what what do we want. What is true? And then how do we go about doing that together? Um, knowing that it's not going to be easy along the way, you know?


00:15:41.900 — 00:16:19.570 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned emotional detachment. It's both strength in the weakness, right? Just ask your wife, I think about one thing we say a lot is undisciplined. Strengths become weaknesses. Right. And so it's just it's to know when it's helpful for you, what environment is helpful and when is it not right.

So, uh, absolutely can resonate with that for sure. Um, talk a little bit. Now jump in as a head coach in less than ideal circumstances right before the 2022 season, did you have any fears or any concerns early on? Just starting right in September? I think just a few days before training camp, what were, I guess, what were some of the thoughts that were going through your head?


00:16:19.810 — 00:17:29.970 · Speaker 3
Um, did I mean to say, like, I guess the question of like, do you have any fears or were there any fears? Like, there's always your that stuff never goes away. I mean, I think that goes back to like part of building mental toughness is the vulnerability and the weakness of like you have to have like when you decide to go after something, you have to very quickly understand the other side of this is is a disaster, failure.

Uh, from a worldly perspective, you're not from, you know, you're still going to have your health. You're going to have your family, like, you know, from a worldly, competitive perspective. When you decide to go after greatness, the quicker you can get in touch with the, uh, the reality of like this. This may not go well.

Um, that that surrender, I think, is what gives you the freedom to go after something. Mhm. And so that is kind of like the longest saying like, yeah. But you have to be aware of that, you know, like you're, you're there that the stakes are so high. Um, if you don't have an understanding of what the other side of greatness is, then then you're not going to want to appreciate it, to understand what is necessary to get to where you want to get to.

Um, and so that was the first thing was like, we got to have that type of freedom. You know, you got to burn the boats and, uh, and just go after it. And, um, along the way, you know,


00:17:31.010 — 00:18:42.970 · Speaker 3
as a head coach, I your team, the season, the game exposes yourself to yourself. And, uh, you know, there's times where you leave meetings, practices, you leave games, and no one else can see it. But, you know, you weren't your best, you know, or, you know, you got exposed psychologically, maybe emotionally, and you have to live.

You have to live with that yourself. You got to work on that yourself. And so you just go in, um, with that type of surrender, that type of freedom, uh, you know, and then you go in understanding that, like, you know, there's going to be gut check moments that you're going to have to get through. And, you know, that goes back to building mental toughness.

And I think the second piece is the vulnerability to rely on the people around you. You know, I told the players on day one like, you're better at what you do than I am at what I do. Um, you know, you're better at playing than I am at coaching, especially right now at this point. So here's where I can help you. Uh, but here's where I need you, you know?

Uh, because of how good you are and what you do. And I think it's the same thing for a staff. You know, they're better at being an assistant coach, and I'm being better at being a head coach. So, um, I need you. And I think starting with that opens up opportunity to grow together, you know?


00:18:43.010 — 00:19:01.450 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, it's so good, man. We had Jim Murphy on here is author of Real Inner Excellence, which A.J. Brown was reading on the sideline. I think we all remember that moment, right? And Jim, one thing he says, that it kind of catches people off guard is when he works with someone and someone says, hey, I want to be best in the world at what I do, whatever sport.

He said, all right, are you ready to fail more than you've ever failed in your life?


00:19:01.490 — 00:20:06.050 · Speaker 3
I mean, I think that's the thing is, like, you know, we kind of talk about that. It was like coming into seasons. We all make these goals, right? Like, you know, every we all have everybody has a team meeting. You know, the day before a media day, you list out goals, expectations. To me the issue with that is like you can't make your goals when you're feeling good.

Like I think you should like go run a marathon, then make your goal because you're making it under duress. You're making it when you're tired. You're making it when you don't feel like doing like to make a goal when you're comfortable. Had something good to eat, like had a cup of coffee. It's like you're not even understanding what the other side of that is.

Yeah, because nothing has come into play yet. We haven't been on a plane. We haven't played a back to back. You haven't played, you know, five games in seven nights. We haven't lost a game. We haven't won a game. We haven't done anything that has, uh, brought any type of resistance to our goal. And so, like, that's kind of like my version of that is like, you should never make goals when you're feeling good.

Uh, because you're just not going to understand the other side of that.


00:20:06.090 — 00:20:09.010 · Speaker 2
Yeah, I've never heard that. But I make so much sense, as you say. That makes.


00:20:09.010 — 00:20:15.690 · Speaker 3
Sense. Well, because if you make it when you're feeling good, the moment you're feeling bad, you're like, oh, this isn't what I expected. And it's like, well, why didn't you expect that? Yeah.


00:20:15.730 — 00:20:17.450 · Speaker 2
Like, yeah, that's so good, man.


00:20:17.530 — 00:20:27.770 · Speaker 3
And so I think again, the quicker you could see the risk in going after success, the better you're going to be able to handle, uh, the ebbs and flows of success.


00:20:27.770 — 00:20:29.330 · Speaker 2
Yeah. That's so good man.


00:20:30.930 — 00:20:51.410 · Speaker 4
No. Show dogs is brought to you by Relay Quest, the global leader in AI cybersecurity request helps enterprise cybersecurity teams contain threats in minutes with its agents. AI security operations platform Gray Matter Request makes security possible for the most trusted enterprise brands in the world.

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00:20:53.610 — 00:21:16.730 · Speaker 2
When it comes to winning a championship and championship organizations. I think the at the highest levels, the margins are so razor thin, so stinking, razor thin. What have you seen in your time, both as assistant coach and obviously the head coach and winning a title? Like what have you seen are some of the things that tipped the scale that go from like really good organization to a championship caliber organization?


00:21:16.770 — 00:23:27.120 · Speaker 3
Are players sure. That's number one. You have to have, uh, great players, amazing players, players who are great people, players who are innately competitive. Um, but I think even the years that we haven't won, we still have had that. And I think that's number one is like, again, you have to set up the environment to go after it knowing that you probably you might not get it.

So I think the best thing we do here is every year, uh, ownership, front office players, staff, employees. We come in with an understanding of like, okay, we're going to come together for the process of winning, but nothing is guaranteed. And how do we go about that together? I think that's the most important thing.

Um, I think the mindset of your players take you over the top, you know, the competitive character, the intensity. You know, they're the ones that have to take it to another level every round. And it just gets harder and harder. And if you don't have guys that can do that, then you're not going to win. I mean, and we're very fortunate to have that, uh, here, you know, with us, the, the thing that exposed to me is like you and this may not be popular, but like, you have less control over winning than you think you do.

Like, and and you have to you have to, you know, you just have to know that, you know, you can't sit there and be like, man, you know, we won that. Like I'm talking about coaching not playing. Sure. Okay. Like it's like we won that. You know, it's like. No. Like things happened. You know what I mean? Like, you may have had a good time out here or there.

Maybe you drew up a good play. Maybe you didn't. You know, like your, you know, your staff, but, like, things also happen. And I think that can't go underestimated of like. It goes back to identity piece. Like if you sit around thinking like, yeah, you know we we did that. Like, you're gonna miss it, you know.

And so as much as, uh, you know, we did a great job as a staff. The ball bounces your way sometimes, and I think you have to have a surrender to that. Uh, because the years you don't win, you can't sit there and be like, we blew it. I'm a loser, right? You know, this talk about. And it's like, you know, can you always be better?

Yes. Uh, but you have to know that, uh, there's something bigger than you out there, and, and and that's going to happen from time to time, you know? Yeah.


00:23:27.240 — 00:23:51.320 · Speaker 2
When you talk about something that's bigger than you. I mean, yeah, you got to have the right players, obviously. Um, but I also think about your team is a bunch of guys from different backgrounds, different points in their career, potentially different personal goals depending on contract status.

Right. Just a bunch of there's a lot of differentiators in there that could potentially separate a team. So how do you get all the guys to buy into something bigger than themselves and unify around that?


00:23:51.360 — 00:25:21.240 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Again, one, it comes back to the guys like they want that for themselves. I don't think you can really want I don't think you can make someone do something that they don't want to do, you know. And I think at the end of the day, we're just facilitators, you know. And so we have a group of guys, again, our, our front office, you know, scours resources to bring in the right people.

And then you have the right people and then you're just helping facilitate that. Um, but it's the guys that have to make the decision to want to do that. And they all do that. Um, but off the court, stuff like that to me is my favorite thing to do. Like, it's my favorite, um, is just bringing learning about different people, like you're saying, like, you know, we got guys that are married, guys that are married with no kids, guys that are married with kids.

Uh, we got guys that are single. We got guys that are in relationships. Guys from different religions. Guys from different countries. I mean, in the building alone, we have players from seven different countries and employees from nine different countries. And so like just learning is the coolest part about one thing about each guy or, you know, having conversations about your wife or like how you know your kids and always, you know, you just got to meet people where they're at and have an understanding of, like, we're all on a journey.

Um, how can we be on a journey together? But along the way, how can we, like, learn about each other and have an understanding of, like, you know, I can't be the best. I can't be who I am if I don't understand who you are. Um. And we got to do that together.


00:25:22.520 — 00:25:26.240 · Speaker 2
What do those sessions look like when, I mean, is it just all the time? You're always there all the time.


00:25:26.280 — 00:25:27.160 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I.


00:25:27.160 — 00:25:29.880 · Speaker 2
Can't, like, make it. You can't be like, yeah, yeah, okay. We're going to have you.


00:25:29.920 — 00:26:27.960 · Speaker 3
Yeah, we're going to have a 20 minute meeting. You're going to tell me everything. I would imagine like I'm more I'm more spontaneous. I don't like meetings. I don't like structure. Uh, I like I don't know, this is a weird. I don't know if it makes sense, but, like, I like discipline but not structure, you know, because I think, like, you know, you got to be disciplined in the things you do.

But you know, you know, if we if we need a maybe we don't need a film session today, maybe we do. But like, maybe we're going to do this instead. So like, I think, you know, if you were to say like if you spent 10s with each guy every single day for 250 days straight, that's better than, like a a forced 20 minute meeting.

Yeah. Where you're not vulnerable or you're not, like, talking about, um, things. And so I think it's just more about like, can you win ten second daily interactions with each guy? And maybe those 10s turn into 30 some days, maybe it turns into a dinner, maybe it turns into, you know, a team conversation.

But I think, uh, just chipping away at that time, uh, you know, is the best thing to do.


00:26:28.000 — 00:26:32.040 · Speaker 2
Yeah, I love that. I haven't heard that before. Love discipline. Don't like structure. Yeah.


00:26:32.040 — 00:26:53.160 · Speaker 3
I'm horrible again. That goes back to, like, at home. It's not good. Like, uh, like, you know, I'm just not structured at all, like. Yeah, you know, but, you know, I haven't you have a clear understanding of like, hey, we got to we got to get this accomplished. It just may not be we may get it accomplished in a different way today than we than we did yesterday and in the next day.

But you know, we're going to get it done. It just may not look the same all the time.


00:26:53.200 — 00:27:07.400 · Speaker 2
Yeah. That's that's great man. After after winning a title at such a young age, I'm sure some new challenges came up. Maybe that you were ready for or maybe you didn't foresee. What are some new challenges that came up that that you've had to tackle at all?


00:27:07.600 — 00:29:08.070 · Speaker 3
Uh, I mean, you never stopped tackling them. The main one is is just in the phrase alone, like, I'm not a championship head coach. I'm just a guy that won a championship with a bunch of other people. And I think it comes back to like the identity piece. Like, you start walking around saying like, oh, I'm a championship head coach or like, that doesn't mean to me.

You know, there's coaches who are better than I am that have never may have never even gotten to the playoffs. Like, like, um, you know, you can't start looking at success, um, because of that. And so I think it's like in your wording is the most important thing. Like, I'm just a guy that, uh, you know, won a championship with a group of people.

Um, and we did it together. So I think that's the number one thing is like, my identity cannot be wrapped up in that, or else you you're gonna you're just a failure for the rest of your life because, you know, you may only get one. So, like, if you coach for 20 years and you go one out of 20, did you have one successful year and 19 unsuccessful ones like, you know, what does that look like?

And so I think that's the first test is being very specific about the story you tell yourself and the words that you use and knowing that, like, I didn't do anything, um, there was a group of us that did this and then it's over. I think from a competitive standpoint, uh, when you are fortunate enough to win, it tests your willpower.

You know, it tests your willpower of like, okay, how are we going after more? Um, and, uh, you know, I kind of I kind of, uh, compared it to, like, after the first one, you're kind of like in purgatory, you know, because, like, now you have a sense of what it's like, but you might not you might not get back. And, like, how how bad do you really want it, like to get back to the top of that and, end, and it may take years, you know, it may take one, it may take ten, and you just don't know.

But along the way, like if you're not in it for the right reasons and super competitive, then then you're just you're not going to make it, you know, and you got to be there for something bigger than that. So I think those are the two biggest things is, is the story you tell yourself about the journey. It's much bigger than you.

And you know, what tests are you in it for the right reasons. Because it may not never come back around, but you're still going to show up every day.


00:29:08.150 — 00:29:16.190 · Speaker 2
Yeah. How do you continue to to grow and evolve as a coach? What are you doing intentionally just to keep challenging yourself personally? Uh.


00:29:17.070 — 00:29:18.230 · Speaker 3
Laugh at myself,


00:29:19.310 — 00:31:21.950 · Speaker 3
um, call myself an idiot, laugh at all the mistakes that I make on a daily basis that people don't even recognize. I think that's that's a fun part. Um, you have to be able to do that. Uh, and then I think, just like being around good people, I mean, I think, uh, my, I say this and I mean it. Everybody on my staff is better than me at what I need them to do, you know, because, you know, as a head coach, you can't give 100% to everything in the job.

You're really giving like 40% to a bunch of different buckets. And so you need people who are 100% better than you at this. Like, you know, the guys at coach offense are better than me at coaching offense. The guys at coach defense are better than me at coaching defense. Um, you know, the guys that do player development are better than I am at developing players.

Um, clearly the, you know, strength staff is better at putting a plan together, like you're just a small piece and you got the people around. You have to be better than you and you got to know that. And so making sure that we have guys in place that are better than I am or is is one of the most important things, and that there's a space where people can do their jobs, um, because we need them, you know, to be able to do their jobs.

And like I said, like I'm the last guy the players see on a daily basis. You know, just because of how the schedule is played out. And so they're going to see the security team. They're going to see the guy at the front desk. They're going to see the kitchen staff. They're going to see the sports science staff.

They're going to see the strength staff. And then the last thing they do is get on the court. They're going to see their player development coach, and then I interrupt their workouts and then I spend time with them. So I'm the last guy. And so if we don't have a group of people who have an understanding that every interaction with the players is the most important interaction and what they do matters, then then my job doesn't matter at all.

And so I think that's that's the number one thing. And then, you know, I, I enjoy learning like I enjoy asking questions, I enjoy, um, seeking information. Um, that's what I'm, you know, my favorite things to do because it shows you that you don't know shit and that you can everybody else knows more than you do, and you just got to steal it from him.


00:31:22.870 — 00:31:24.270 · Speaker 2
Be a professional thief. Yeah.


00:31:24.270 — 00:31:25.230 · Speaker 3
Yeah. Essentially.


00:31:25.270 — 00:31:37.630 · Speaker 2
Yeah. No, I love it, man. Just a couple more. We talked before we came on about your jiu jitsu training. Yeah. And how does how does putting yourself in that environment train yourself make you a better head coach.


00:31:37.870 — 00:33:03.070 · Speaker 3
It makes me a better person, which will make me a better head coach. But all the things that we're trying to simulate in life are the mats exposed to you. You know, I remember my first couple sessions I was acting, and then, you know, I might have gotten choked out for like, the 10th time. And I just lost it. Like just slapping the mats, swearing complete disrespect for the gym.

And my trainer was like, there's the Joe that I was waiting for. And so I think in the world today, it's very easy to hide physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically. And when you get on the mat, you can't hide. You can't hide physically. You can't hide mentally. You can't hide psychologically.

You can't hide emotionally. All of that is going to get exposed, uh, for good and for bad. And that's coaching. You know, it's the exact same thing. And so when I got the job, you know, martial arts has always been important in my life, but it's like I needed something that's harder than the job. And there's nothing harder than being exposed.

You know your your weaknesses in real time to where you can get clear feedback on like, this is where I have to be better. This is where I was good. And that's just the beginning. Um, but yeah, it starts there, right? It starts with, um, you know, the vulnerability to put yourself in positions to where you're going to be exposed to yourself, you're going to be exposed to people, and you can take that into the arena and then you can apply it to your job.


00:33:03.430 — 00:33:17.070 · Speaker 2
It's really good. Does that. I know you're a UFC MMA guy. Yeah. Is there is there something that the mindset of a fighter that they have that that you're like, I wish everybody had that thing.


00:33:17.350 — 00:33:24.110 · Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I think I think really it's just the, the, the mindset of like, uh,


00:33:26.110 — 00:34:21.580 · Speaker 3
there's no guarantee. Like there's no guarantee, you know, and I think sometimes in team sports you can hide, you know, again, it goes back to like, you can hide, uh, you know, you can have a bad game, but your team can win. You know, like, you can, uh, you know, in different sports. In football, you could, you know, get 100 yards receiving, but your team lose.

But it's not your fault that you lost. You know, I talked to my son about it all the time. Like, you know, UFC, MMA, wrestling. You can't hide. Like, if you lose, you you come out of a wrestling match and you lost. It's not your coach's fault. It's not the quarterback's fault. It's not the point guards fault.

It's your fault. You know you did it. And so I think you can't simulate in team sports that type of individual accountability towards what you have to go after. And your success dictates the success of your coach, the success of your family, the success of that. And I think that's like, we can we can in team environments.

We can learn from that. You know, can you create that for yourself?


00:34:21.740 — 00:34:22.379 · Speaker 2
Yeah.


00:34:22.379 — 00:34:26.500 · Speaker 3
Um, but, you know, because you're out there on an island by yourself, it's just different.


00:34:27.620 — 00:34:36.980 · Speaker 2
This is popped in my head. So I'm going to ask it if you're a UFC fighter, you're walking into the arena. What would your song. What would your walkout song? What would your walkout song be?


00:34:37.460 — 00:36:12.380 · Speaker 3
I have an entire playlist. Uh, it's actually my favorite thing to do when I go to UFC fights, and I'm like, I might. I might not even know the song, but I'm like, damn, that song resonates. And I think, you know, just I don't know how much time we have left, but like, this goes into another way of like learning of, like when I'm, when I'm at the matches and I, um, I hear a song, I put it into a playlist and then I can go back and visualize, put that song on and visualize and almost, almost, you know, walk into the eye like you're walking onto the court, you're walking into the Octagon.

And, and I love using music as a, as a visualization reference for the feeling that you had. I was talking to my son about this. He went on a visit to a college and they showed a highlight tape. And it was this, you know, this, this Travis Scott song. And I was like, take this song. And when you start lifting, start with that song, because it's going to take you back to the feeling that you had of watching that highlight tape.

And it's going to be a small moment of of inspiration, of goal setting. It goes back to like, when do you see like, it's easy to sit there and be motivated by a highlight tape. When you've got a water in your hand, everyone's telling you that you're happy to be here and you're watching that. But then on your third set, like, can you go back to that song and go back to that feeling of how inspired you were watching the highlight tape?

And so I don't know what song because it'll depend on what mood I'm in. Yeah. You know, like it'll depend on where I'm at. Where is the fight? What are what arena is it in who my opponent is? What was training like? I know I want to have my wife and my kids walk down with me. I think that'd be really cool. Um, but taking songs and bringing it back to you in that moment, uh, can be so powerful for you from a mentality standpoint.


00:36:12.420 — 00:36:20.060 · Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, it's really good. I don't know if I've ever seen a UFC fighter walk out with their family, but I imagine I think a couple I think there's some. Yeah. That's power.


00:36:20.100 — 00:36:20.980 · Speaker 3
That'd be fun. It is.


00:36:21.020 — 00:36:38.500 · Speaker 2
That's power. That'd be cool for sure though. Before we get to our final question, we ask every guest the same final question. But before we get there, I just want to do three rapid fire questions that just short quick hitters. And first one. What's something that players need that they'll never ask for?

Love.


00:36:39.140 — 00:36:43.340 · Speaker 3
Yeah, that's an easy one. Me too. Coaches? People? Sure. I think it's everybody.


00:36:43.500 — 00:36:43.860 · Speaker 2
It's really.


00:36:43.860 — 00:36:49.420 · Speaker 3
Good. The answer is love. It just looks different, right? I mean, I think I was talking to one of our players about this. Sorry, it's not rapid, but.


00:36:49.420 — 00:36:50.220 · Speaker 2
That was good. It's great.


00:36:50.260 — 00:37:06.900 · Speaker 3
People here in English, there's like, one definition of love. There's like one word for it. When you like, translate Hebrew, there's like seven different words for love. Five. I think five different words for love. And so we say love. And it could mean like, are you talking marital love or are you talking brotherly love or are you talking or pizza?


00:37:06.940 — 00:37:08.020 · Speaker 2
Yeah. Like I love people.


00:37:08.060 — 00:37:18.820 · Speaker 3
Yeah. And so I think the word, the simple word is love, but the the complicated one is like, what type of love does each person need and what type of love are you willing to give to different people? Mm.


00:37:19.060 — 00:37:28.340 · Speaker 2
It's really good, man. It's deep. It's I think it's agape. Right? Is at the deepest level. Yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah. Um, what's one truth about leadership that people don't want to hear?


00:37:28.460 — 00:37:30.500 · Speaker 3
Oh, you're going to suck at it.


00:37:31.740 — 00:38:00.100 · Speaker 3
So I mean, this is actually a bigger topic of like, you know, man, I probably shouldn't say this, but like the truth about leadership that people don't want to hear is there's a dark side to it. There's a dark side to leadership. Uh, I love reading leadership books. I think a ton of them are good. I think, um, you need the servant leadership.

You need those things. Those get you in the door. But evolving and going through like, you have to have a dark side to your leadership. And that's all I'm going to say. I mean, there's a lot more there, but I'm just going to keep it.


00:38:00.140 — 00:38:07.660 · Speaker 2
Sure. Yeah. Well. Part two. So it's good. Uh, last one, what's been the most impactful coaching advice that you've ever received?


00:38:08.900 — 00:38:28.580 · Speaker 3
Uh, you're not as good as you think you are. Yeah. My wife, we lost to Miami game seven, and I was sitting at home pouting like a baby. And she was like, you've been coaching the NBA for one year and you lost in the conference finals, and you're so arrogant. You thought that you were just supposed to win. And so I got up, poured another glass of wine, and we moved on.


00:38:29.420 — 00:38:58.860 · Speaker 2
So good. The power of just a grounded spouse. Okay. Yeah. That's so good. Well, that brings us to our final question. We, you know, the No Show Dogs podcast is about doing the work. It's not about, you know, talking about it. We don't care if it we don't care what it looks like. It's, you know, as long as you get the job done.

And so with that in mind, when you reflect on your career up to this point, what do you think have been some of the things that you've been willing to do that maybe others haven't? Like, I mean, we don't always know what everybody else is doing, but just what are some things that you've been willing to do to help you have the success you've had to this point?


00:38:58.900 — 00:39:44.330 · Speaker 3
Um, I mean, I mean, again, like, I don't know that I have had any success. I think it depends on what your definition of that is to. I think if the people around you didn't do what they do, I wouldn't do anything. The third one is, the thing I reflect on the most is like, I think you have to be willing to be forgotten.

Um, you know, I think that's kind of my main goal is like, I want to be forgotten about because that means after you, it was better. And I think that's what it means to be a Celtic is however long you play coach work for the Celtics. Your your job is to keep it exactly where it's at or bring it better. You cannot bring it down.

Uh, if you leave and it gets worse, that's your fault.


00:39:45.450 — 00:40:13.730 · Speaker 3
Uh, if you leave and they win and they forgot about you, you did your job. And I talk about that every day of the staff. Like, you know, the job is to one day be forgotten about because you did your job. Uh, and it became about something bigger than you. And I think that's a burden and a love, um, for being with the Celtics.

But it's a responsibility. And I think we could take that into our daily life is like, can I leave it so much better that they don't remember me because the next person came and was better?


00:40:14.170 — 00:40:19.890 · Speaker 2
Wow, that's powerful man. Joe, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate your time. Really appreciate it. Yeah absolutely man.


00:40:21.130 — 00:41:17.690 · Speaker 1
Hey, hold up real quick. I want to remind you to head on over to our No Show Dogs Instagram page to hear how Joe answered our three and out questions. We asked him, what's something that players need that they'll never ask for? What's one truth about leadership that people don't want to hear? And what's been the most impactful coaching advice that he's ever received?

An Instagram is not the only place you can find us. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at No Show Dogs and also follow us on LinkedIn. The last thing I want to say is just this. Thank you for making the best investment you can ever make, and that's the investment you make in yourself, in your own development.

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